Good for You, Bad for You: Alcohol

Hello, and welcome to the Cancer Pod. This podcast is for education, entertainment and informational purposes only. Do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own.

Leah: Hi Tina.

Tina: Hi Leah. 

Leah: So before we started recording, you told me about this song that you listened to when you were younger. 

Tina: Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. This song by The Kinks that I said my sister would listen to. 

Leah: Yeah, and I've never heard of it, and it's called Alcohol. So I played it, as you know, right before we got on. And I think we need to do that. I think we need to play a song related to what we're going to talk about to kind of pump us up. 

Tina: I love the idea. I'm all in. 

Leah: Yeah, too bad we can't play it on the air. 

Tina: No, we can't play it on the air because of copyright. 

Leah: Right. 

Tina: Shoot. 

Leah: I know. But we could still listen to it. And it can totally get us amped up. And talk about our show.

Tina: You're a singer. You got a voice, you could sing. 

Leah: I'm a singer. (laughter) Just because I sing doesn't mean I'm a singer. We're all singers. 

Tina: I suppose that's true in the shower. [laughter]

Leah: Shower, car. [laughter]

Tina: It's good for you. 

Leah: It opens up the lungs. It opens up the heart. Yeah, that kind of has to do with the first thing we're going to talk about too.

Tina: Yes. So we have on our next set of pods, and our next pod, single pod, three episodes. We're going to talk about...

Leah: Alcohol.

Tina: Coffee. 

Leah: And soy.

Leah: So it's kind of good for you bad for you. What you hear in the news, what people are talking about. Like, oh, one minute it's good for you, and the next minute it's bad for you.

Tina: Yes. Which you know, everything kind of comes and goes. You can't trust the news because there's other forces that massage the news. Remember margarine was good for you back in the '60s. 

Leah: True, and eggs were bad for you. But I think that goes deeper than just the news. I think they want clickbait type things. I think they want like, “Wait! This thing that I love is going to make me sick or it's going to make me live forever?” I think it's clickbait.

Tina: I totally agree. 

Leah: But there is science and there are facts behind why studies are coming out showing one way or the other.

Tina: Yeah, so let's talk about alcohol. So there's a general understanding, there's that French paradox that people talk about, which is you know, a glass of wine is good for your cardiovascular health and alcohol has certain benefits. And, you know, there's this idea that there's benefits to some alcohol. And of course, we know there's also detriments to alcohol. So we're going to talk about that today. 

Leah: Exactly. 

Tina: So, let's start at the beginning. My name is Dr. Tina Kaczor, I'm a naturopathic doctor in Oregon. 

Leah: And my name is Dr. Leah Sherman, and I'm a naturopathic doctor as well as a yoga instructor in Oregon. We're both in the Pacific Northwest. 

Tina: Yes. But wherever you're listening from, we hope that we can give you a little bit of information and a little bit of entertainment, which I like to call infotainment and the next half hour or so. 

Leah: And if you don't think we're funny, we think we're funny enough for the both of us. 

Tina: That's right. 

Leah: So you were saying alcohol... Oh, you know what? I have a quote from the great Homer Simpson. 

Tina: Oh, please tell.

Leah: “To alcohol, the cause and solution to all of life's problems.”  I think that kind of just summarizes... 

Tina: Yeah. 

Leah: What we're going to talk about next… 

Tina: Yeah Homer had his moments. Yeah, but let's talk about the French paradox and why that even exists. One of the things we know is that longevity, just longer lives in a lot of European countries. But the French paradox specifically talks about, maybe, perhaps, saying that wine has unique benefits, especially for cardiovascular health. And pointed to a compound called resveratrol and grapes, which, you know well, that's found in wine in that resveratrol, which is what makes the wine-red, right? Resveratrol in the grape just for the record is what the grape uses to protect itself from funguses in nature. 

Leah: Oh, cool. 

Tina: Yeah. So resveratrol has a purpose for the grape, it doesn't just make it for our benefit, it makes it for its own benefit. And that's why buying organic is better, because it forces the plant to take care of itself. And some of the compounds like resveratrol that plants make to care for their own welfare are actually good for us too. So that's a really good example of that. 

Leah: But resveratrol isn't the only thing in wine that may be beneficial, right? 

Tina: Oh, that's true. Good point. So other compounds, of course, grapes are more complex than just having resveratrol. So there are other phytochemicals, like, a lot of different polyphenols that are found in all fruits and vegetables. And so as a complex food product, there are other compounds within the grape that will have effects.  And polyphenols are generally what gives it color right, you know, so the blues and purples and oranges and yellows, and, you know, generally the all those colors are... 

Leah: Eat the rainbow kind of thing 

Tina: Exactly, this is why we say eat the rainbow, because a lot of those compounds are polyphenols, and they have the health benefit of that plant. 

Leah: So that's good to know because then we can always add those super colorful foods like berries, and grapes into our diet and get health benefits without getting the alcohol. 

Tina: There is the hat. Yeah, so any of the benefits of that is from the wines' polyphenols can be gotten from other fruits and vegetables, of course.

Leah: And, then that supports cardiovascular health, because in the news, it's saying how for cardiovascular health, wine is good. And then you flip the page, and there's a story that says, no amount of alcohol is healthy. And as a cancer survivor, I find that really, I don't know, it's confusing, because I want to protect my heart, because of my history of getting chemo that can be cardiotoxic, and just taking other treatments that may have caused some sort of potential heart issues. And then I have a family history of heart disease. And so, I want to be able to do positive things for my heart. But then I also don't want to have anything that will increase my risk of recurrence, of the cancer. I don't know, it seems like we are kind of picking on wine. But it's pretty much all alcohol that has been shown to be unsafe. 

Tina: True. It's interesting, because we had been told for many, many years- decades maybe- that the cutoff was one drink for women, two drinks for men when it came to cancer care. As in, your risk of cancer or cancer recurrence goes up after you consume more than one drink a day. And we'll define a drink in a little bit. But after you have one drink a day for women and two drinks a day for men, statistically, so that's what they were saying the data bore out. But now the line has been changed. It's no longer one or two drinks. Now it's zero. 

Leah: Well, I looked that up. And I found on the MD Anderson website, someone actually asks if alcohol is a carcinogen, then why are you even giving serving recommendations? And they said that they understand that people aren't going to abstain completely, so they give them a guideline as to what moderate drinking looks like. 

Tina: Yeah, and this is an interesting topic in itself because physically, that's true, right? Physically the carcinogens in an alcoholic drink are very clear, so there should be a zero tolerance. Now psychologically, you know, people drink a glass of wine in a social setting, or it can be relaxing, you know, a de-stressor. I'm not saying to use it as such, but that's generally what happens. Or it's just connected with, like I said: socializing, good times, having fun, relaxing. Psychological benefit against the known physical risks of it also have to be weighed, which is I think is a whole topic unto itself, as far as research goes, because I think the psychological benefits might be very difficult to track or see in the data. 

Leah: What I find difficult is that -and I've mentioned this in the previous pod- that we give up so much, and if we get enjoyment from having a beer with some pizza, or a glass of wine. A chilled glass of wine on a hot summer day, you know, you know, like, you don't want to enter it, thinking like, this is going to be the one that does me in. 

I have, for the most part given up alcohol, but as you know, I will on occasion, have a drink. And there is that aspect, I was at a gallery opening and I had a glass of sparkly pink something because that's one of my favorite things is anything that sparkly and pink. And I was like, I'm just gonna have one glass. And then I was having like, so much fun. And it was like, I felt like old Leah like the old me that I like, almost went for a second glass. And I was like, I'm going to stop because with all of the changes that have happened to my body, since going through treatment, alcohol doesn't react well, right? Like, once you kind of go through menopause. I mean, I have girlfriends who are in menopause, who just stopped drinking and they have no history of cancer, it was just because you feel lousy. But there was that whole like, I was getting caught up in the moment, and I was like, I want like another one and I'm feeling good… and this is like, like I said, like, it's old me. And then like, I was like, put the brakes on it. This is where we need our soundboard “screeeech.” 

Tina: Yeah, the consequences. It's something to think about. And let's just say that, like, I think it's fair to say in the data, zero is idea but let's not forget quality of life counts. So rather than being absolute and feeling like you can never ever have another stitch of a drop of anything that has alcohol in it. Maybe making sure that if someone indulges, I think it's prudent, if someone wants to be prudent, to not have more than one serving. Really, they should do that across the board, I mean, I can't see any reason to do two, even if it's a gentleman.

Leah: Yeah, I don't know if that's just based on weight. 

Tina: Probably. That could be…

Leah: And we're leaving addiction out of this whole conversation because that's not what I practiced in. I am familiar with addiction, but it's not something that, like, we're even breaking into that. I mean, there is that thing about questioning, why is it so hard for me to give it up? I mean, that's definitely something to explore. But this is like addiction aside, this is like the other side of it, you know? 

Tina: Well, you could actually—when you're not talking about actual alcoholism, you can lump it in probably with all sorts of comfort activities, or comfort foods or things that bring comfort, despite the fact that they're not good for you. 

Leah: Yeah and you were saying it was the alcohol and so it's the acet, actet… 

Tina: Acetaldehyde? 

Leah: Acetaldehyde. Yeah, (okay, we're going to edit that). So, with the alcohol, specifically, it's the acetaldehyde that is bad and so how is that bad? What is it in this substance that is so bad for us? 

Tina: So acetaldehyde is actually toxic to the genes. I mean, it's a toxic compound acetaldehyde shouldn't be in our bodies, it is a breakdown product of alcohol. And there is no safe amount of that, you know, really shouldn't have that circulating in us. It's very damaging. And there are a few other compounds too, like for example, if there's any aflatoxins, which are common on some foods out there, they can make their way into any alcoholic drink. It could be most likely wine or a beer or something like that. Because they're less purified, right? 

So those fermented compounds like wines and beers and ciders are everything that was in the batch pretty much as in your class, where when you take a distillate like vodka or gin, because of the distillation process and the purification, you're getting alcohol, but you're getting less other compounds, so it's a little less complex than the fermented drinks. So, we have aflatoxins and then there is another…there's another compound. It's basically urethane. Urethane is... 

Leah: That sounds like something that you'd use to clean. 

Tina: Yeah. It's the stuff you buy at Home Depot, kind of the same compound, but that's another carcinogen that's found in alcohol - urethane sometimes. And it's just a natural…

Leah: It just naturally occurs? 

Tina: Naturally occurring. Yes. So very, very, very small amounts. But again, it's not a compound you really want your system at any amount, right? So, when you realize that there's all these… not just the alcohol, which is ethanol, right? Ethanol is alcohol, that is toxic all by itself. But then you have these other compounds that are directly toxic, these are toxic compounds that you can look up online, in toxicity banks - toxic compounds- like Chem ID is a website that I use to look at toxic compounds or compounds of any kind. 

Leah: So, the acetaldehyde, you're saying it damages our genes. 

So, it damages our DNA, when we ingest alcohol, and when the DNA is damaged – it damages cells, then it prevents cells from repairing themselves. 

Tina: Yes, so the acetaldehyde is directly damaging to the DNA. And if …there's a lot of reasons you can have trouble repairing the cells, it could be nutrient deficiency. You know, this is like partying like a rock star…  

Leah: Yeah, alcohol can cause one to have nutrient deficiency too, it can deplete certain important vitamins. 

Tina: Yeah, that's a good point right?. So, in order to repair the DNA, you have to have folate, folic acid and folate-- alcohol, good old ethanol that's found in any, any of these drinks that we're talking about… 

Leah: Because we're not just picking on wine, we're saying wine… we're picking on it all

Tina: All of it

Leah: We're picking on hard liquor; we're picking on beer. 

Tina: Yeah. And you know what, let me say this. So when you talk about wine, five ounces of wine is roughly equivalent to 12 ounces of a 5% beer. And that's equivalent to one and a half ounces of distilled liquor. 

Leah: Right. I went to bartending school. So that is something that I...

Tina: Oh, you know, that well,

Leah: I knew that well, yeah. But what I always find fascinating is, nobody pours a five-ounce glass, like if you saw a five ounce, you know, because like people are doing using my hands. So, we need like hand-a-vision.  Hand-a-vision?  I'm using my hands to show those big wine glasses that you get. And if you put five ounces in that, I mean, usually it's like where the glass starts to balloon out. But it can be a very, like small looking amount. And so, what people tend to do at home is give themselves a much hardier pour. 

Tina: Yes. So, it's important to realize what a serving is in that context. Because I can tell you, I sat across from a woman, many moons ago with breast cancer, and I asked her does she drink because it's just a part of intake.. She said, Yeah, actually, I said how much she said, I have one drink when I get home. And I looked at her and something told me this woman was a drinker, right? Like he just looked at her. I thought I asked her specifically, what did you drink? She said whiskey. And I said, “Okay.”  I'm thinking one drink when she gets home. And I said, how many ounces is that one drink? 

Leah: Right…

Tina: And she said, generally four to five ounces. 

Leah: That's a good three to four drinks. 

Tina: Yeah. 

Leah: Wow. 

Tina: It was significantly more than one drink. So, I'm saying that because I think you are right. I think we have to be careful when we say “a serving” and to be very specific. 

Leah: If we're ordering a double in some places like it's an ounce of alcohol and other restaurants in bars you go to they'll do an ounce and a half. I mean, I think it's actually in Oregon regulated by the state how much is serving can be used? 

Tina: I don't know. All I know is drinks are strong here.  

Leah: But anyways, serving size is important. And I do want to say, and I have said this to patients, as I know you have for years, there is no safe amount of alcohol when you're going through treatment. I mean, your liver is working hard trying to process through all that chemotherapy and going out for drinks the night before or after. And people may laugh and say, how can you do that? And I have had patients who left chemotherapy and went out for cocktails. That is not safe. That's just gonna lead to your liver being like, wait, I'm processing chemo and alcohol? Like, what are you doing to me? 

Tina: Yeah, there's definitely a limit to what the liver can do. You know, and on that note, I want to add one other thing we haven't mentioned it yet. But when you say people go out and have a drink, alcohol is a very good solvent. So if there's other carcinogens that people are around, say they are at a bar, and there is smoke or there with people who do smoke or whatever, if you inhale, some tobacco smoke, which very clearly known to have carcinogens in it- and you're also drinking alcohol- you're kind of amplifying the effect of other carcinogens around you. So I think that's also something to keep in mind that there's an amplification effect, just because of alcohol and alcohol is a good solvent. 

Leah: And then there is the whole thing with when you're drinking, bad choices are made in terms of like, you're drinking and then you go out for fries. And, you know, you might be like, “oh, I never smoke, unless I drink.” You know, like, it could be one of… 

Tina: Yes absolutely. 

Leah: Drinking can lead to other bad habits that are also not good for you, I have a feeling that this is going to be maybe not our most popular episode. 

Tina: I know. See, and I wanted to find out the virtues in our vices, right? Like, I wanted to be like, “Oh, yeah, but you know what…” - alcohol doesn't have a ton of virtue because even that wine that we mentioned the beginning, you could do grape juice and get the same effect.

Leah: It doesn't taste the same. Okay, so that is that is true, there are foods that do have the resveratrol, so they have the beneficial parts what the studies are showing why wine is good for you. There are foods that have resveratrol, like berries and grapes.

Tina: Peanuts skins, that's my favorite. 

Leah: Peanut skins... wow. 

Tina: They are my favorite because I was just amazed that they had it. 

Leah: That's why I'm saying “wow.” 

Yeah, I knew that there were some there were other things. So but there are, you know, it's easy to find in an online search as to like a comprehensive list of foods and beverages that are non-alcoholic. But there also are non-alcoholic options. And those are things that I have been exploring. In the first pod, in one of the episodes, I mentioned that I drink a sparkling hop tea, and it comes in a can and it feels like a beer and it's hoppy, which is one of the ingredients in beer. And they have a brand that I like it has three different flavors. One has chamomile so it's relaxing. One has black tea, so it is invigorating. And then there's a Citra hop one, which just is kind of like an IPA-ish. You know, I think that's the one that's most like beer. So that is that's a great option for people if they miss beer.

If they choose to stop drinking, yet they want something they can have every day. 

Tina: Yeah, because the act of drinking something that is, it's the action. It's the socialization it's the atmosphere, it's you know, being on a raft going down a river on a sunny, hot day and being able to reach in the cooler and drink something that's akin to a beer for some people if that's what they were doing before. But I see your point, like, you could just stock those things, have enjoyable beverage, and not have the alcohol at all. I think I love that idea. 

 Leah: And what's kind of a good thing maybe that came out of all of the COVID quarantine the past year and a half, almost two years that were going on is that people are becoming more aware of how much they were drinking. And so there are a lot of craft type non-alcoholic beers available. And I've been trying them and some of them are really good. Some of them are made with alcohol and then the alcohol is taken out. That's how you make a non-alcoholic beer. So there are trace amounts of alcohol. I think it's like comparable, if not less than what normal kombucha has, which is fascinating. As kombucha can also be an alternative to having an alcoholic beverage. 

So non-alcoholic beers are an option. And then there are non-alcoholic wines, which… people are like, yeah, that's grape juice. But no, they actually have alcoholic wines that they do alcoholize. Okay. And I tried one, I tried to Chardonnay and I have to say I did not like it at all. It tasted like if you were to leave a bottle of sparkling wine out for a couple of nights. And it went flat. 

Tina: That sounds kind of nasty. 

Leah: It really was not pleasant. There were other brands. And so I'm actually going to experiment and try those as well. There was one that was exciting to me because it was a non-alcoholic tempranillo and I used to love tempranillo and red wine aggravates my hot flashes. And so I'm really curious to see like if I can tolerate it. So that's another option is that there are these de-alcoholalized wines. And they do have, again, trace amounts of alcohol. But yes, it's so minimal. 

Tina: I'm trying to think that I tried a non-alcoholic gin. 

 Leah: They have those too these non-alcoholic spirits, and so they're, and those were kind of cool, because they're like herbal blends. 

Tina: Well, yeah, a little of that and some either soda stream water or tonic water. And it really did taste like, you know, like an alcoholic drink but minus the alcohol. 

Leah: Yeah, and especially with something like gin because that's the Juniper flavor. And put it with some tonic, which is such a distinct flavor. And then a little bit of lime. 

 That was the other thing that I was going to try some of those brands. And if anyone's listening and they're wanting to sponsor us and send us some free samples. I might be okay with that. But otherwise, I'll go by myself. But yeah, 

 Those are some, some options. There also are things like shrubs, and shrubs are fermented with, with different fruits and sugar for a few days in the fridge. And then you strain it. And then you mix it with apple cider vinegar. And then you just use a little bit of it in sparkling water. And so anything like that can be a substitute. If you're socializing. If you have friends over you can have these different options. And I'm sure in the Portland area, there are trendy bars that have shrubs, you know, available, and they probably make cocktails with them too. But those are like nice mocktail type things that you can, you can find. 

 Tina: One of my favorite mocktails super simple. And you can get it pretty much anywhere that there's a stocked bar. It's just bitters, and soda, bitters and carbonated water. 

Leah: Yeah. And there are some really interesting bitters available. It's not just the Angostura bitters that we all know from... 

 Tina: Yeah. They've been around forever. 

 Leah: There's a brand. I'm going to mention it because I think it's a really cool brand. The Bitter Housewife.

Tina: Oh, yes. 

Leah: And they have that at various stores here (in Portland). Yeah, they're tasty. So, I kind of got off track there. 

Tina: No, it's good off track. Very useful, totally useful. I want to circle back to some of the mechanisms of these ways that alcohol can cause cancer because I realized I didn't mention that you can have an increase in estrogen concentration from consuming alcohol. So, breast and esophageal cancers, in particular, have been linked to even low-level consumption of alcohol. And, so that's any level for breast in esophageal and then higher levels are definitely associated with stomach cancer, liver cancer, the pharynx and the larynx, right? So, the throat, and colorectal cancer. 

Leah: Right. And I think that's always the curious thing. Because I think, especially as, you know, a lay person might think… I mean, we all think liver, liver cancer, right? Because liver and alcohol. Stomach cancer, you're like, “Okay, I can see that.” But then you get into something like breast cancer and you're like, “Wait, why does alcohol affect the development of breast cancer?” And so, you're saying it can affect the hormone levels? 

Tina: Yeah, it can definitely affect the hormone levels. And for both breast and colorectal cancer, folate deficiency is linked to those two cancers as well. So, there's another commonality, and alcohol consumption can lead to B vitamin deficiencies, including folate, so I don't know if that's part of it. There’s also…

Leah: I don't want people to go out and start taking a multi B vitamin.

Tina: No, you know, that's another show. I want to talk someday about kind of the sweet spot for everything. You don't want to megadose anything, you don't want to overdo anything. 

Leah: Especially B vitamins, 

Tina: Yeah, especially B vitamins. There's, you know, when you're doing that you're pushing pathways. And, you know, if there are cancer cells, you can be pushing those cancer cells’ paths, just like a normal cell. So, you have to be judicious in your use of supplements, particularly if you're doing anything in a high dose. I mean, you really need to learn what the possible effects could be. Not just the beneficial effects, but maybe the detrimental effects that are less talked about, because let's face it, if you're selling a nutrient, you're not going to be on the market talking about the negative effects of that nutrient. I mean, it's not what goes out there. What goes out there is all marketing information. That's most of what people hear. So it sounds like it's all good, only good, never bad, which is not quite the truth.

Leah: Right. And so, what people might find unusual for us being naturopathic doctors is they probably expect us to be pushing supplements, but we're actually always pushing food sources. We push food to our patients, which we don't, but we promote. We favor food before a supplement pill.

Tina: Absolutely. Always. Because, yeah, foods are complex, and they come with everything you need. Usually they may have complementary compounds in them, where a pill is isolated, and is simple. It's a simplified version…

Leah: And often synthetic. And so it might not be what your body is looking for. 

Tina: Yeah more often than not.

Leah: There are foods that are supportive to our liver, like certain fibers and cruciferous vegetables and those kinds of things that have lots of nutrients that can support… they have the folate. 

Tina: Yeah, leafy greens…

Leah: Leafy greens, I think of Brussel sprouts, 

Tina: Love ‘em.

Leah: Love them, roasted. 

Tina: Oh, yeah. And beets, of course, which I do not like.

Leah: I love them.

Tina: They taste like dirt.

Leah: And sometimes that's delicious. [laughter] I just like them. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, I was gonna bring up a recipe in one of our other sections of this pod. And it has beets in it, and I might still bring it up…

Tina: You should bring it up. 

Leah: There might be people out there who like beets…

Tina: There's plenty of people that love beets. There's something in some of us that I think our taste buds perceive what you think is sweet, like people who like beets might taste sweet. I perceive that same thing as, um…
 
Leah: Soil? 

Tina: Soil. I was going to say, how do I say dirt nicely? 

Leah: Soil.

Tina: Yeah, taste just like dirt. 

Leah: So okay, I'll turn it back to you. So you were talking about, you know, other mechanisms…

Tina: Oh, yeah. So, the other thing is oxidative stress. We didn’t talk about… what happens when people drink alcohol is it increases some enzymes in the liver that increase oxidative stress overall in the body. So - gosh, there’s so much to tell! There’s so many podcasts to do! 

Leah: You can see me making notes here… ox-i-da-tive- stre-ess…

Tina: You’re so good, my tangents become little notes. But, oxidative stress… what liver does before it completely gets rid of kind of a carcinogen. It actually makes things a little more carcinogenic for a moment, and I'm talking a very small moment like, . 000 seconds. But for that moment, if you take a compound, you make it more carcinogenic and then it goes through another phase. That's phase one, and then it goes to phase two and becomes packaged up so you can excrete it, you know, you can pee it out, poop it out, whatever you're going to do with it. But what alcohol does is it increases that first step, if that first step is increased, and you get more carcinogen production in the middle there, then you don't have enough to get rid of it and packaged up for elimination you get, you actually double down on your carcinogen production, because the alcohol increases that process. Does that make sense? Or did I just talk in a circle to you? 

Leah: It makes sense.

Tina: So you basically, have increased carcinogen production, because of alcohol…. You're not impressed.

Leah: I’m just…I mean, it's, it's overwhelming, I think, because in the back of my head, I'm just thinking about my 20s and my 30s.

Tina: Oh 

Leah: You know, I mean, I don't necessarily look for like, “oh, what was the cause?” What was the one specific cause for my cancer? 

Tina: Sure. 

Leah: In my mind, I'm like, “Oh, I was pretty healthy.” I maintained my weight and, you know, right before I was diagnosed, I was like, super, super healthy, the healthiest I've ever been. Ha-ha. I definitely spent my 20s, you know, in New York City, going to clubs and drinking. And, you know, up until my 30s, I remember when I finally went back to school, so I could go to naturopathic school. I mean, I put a limit. I was like, at one point, I'm like, okay, no drinking during the week. Because it just interfered with, you know, studying or whatever. It makes me sound like I was a really heavy drinker. And I actually may have just been like, a very social drinker. If I admit it. 

I don't find it hard to stop drinking, but like I said, there is that social aspect of like, this is the old me, the old party me.  So, I do believe alcohol to be one of the many, many factors. You know, especially like, having been an art student back in the 80s and being exposed to a lot of toxins and then imbibing a lot of alcohol. You know, like all that stuff that you're saying, like alcohol just kind of makes things like it makes the solvents that I was exposed to more soluble. It's just one of those things where it just it does get overwhelming. And that's why I think that this is a tough subject. 

Tina: Well,I'm with you on that, I think, for the most part, cancers are due to a lot of factors. And the last thing I want anyone to do is look back and beat themselves up over whatever they did in a lifetime. All you can do is look forward, right?... and, and affect your future, you can't go back and redo your 20s.

Leah: And I know and I honestly, I wouldn't give up my 20s for anything. An amazing time, I mean, I have had a pretty cool life. So, I wouldn't give it up. But I would have kind of like, known what I was getting myself into. But then again, I was in my 20s, so I probably would have ignored it. But yeah, I mean, like for myself, I don't blame anything that I've done for my cancer. My cancer happened. I'm just always curious as to what were the things that flipped the switch. And I do believe for myself. Alcohol was one of the many things that potentially flipped the switch. 

Tina: Yeah, well, and hopefully, you know, because I think of things being much more complicated than black and white, do this, don't do that.  I mean, hopefully, what we get out of these podcasts and we help other people understand is risk mitigation. How do you mitigate risk. Not how do you avoid it completely, because, you know, risk is inherent in just our day-to-day activities. So that that becomes the like, if you go out and have some alcohol, have only a drink or substitute it with some other things like we talked about and like risk mitigation, I think is all we can do. And then you let go, that's the hard part. It's like let you do everything you possibly can, and then, just make them habits and try to enjoy life because that's really what it's about. 

Leah: I kind of think of it like when I was little, we didn't eat a lot of fast-food. Part of it was because we lived in Spain, and there just wasn't a lot of fast food available. So, we would come back to visit family in the States, and we would go out and we'd have McDonald's, and it was such a treat. And that's how I think of alcohol now. So daily, I have some sort of substitute of whatever it may be, whether it's homemade kombucha or one of the NA [non-alcoholic] beers. And then maybe once a month, maybe I might have a drink or two, a couple times a month. So it's…and it's a treat. But I save it for special occasions. 

Tina: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I think we're talking about with quality of life against zero, the recommendations coming out of Medscape and stuff saying, “Now, the rule is zero alcohol.” It's like, well, you know, the question is, is this really consequential to have one drink a couple times a month… I'm gonna guess that that will not if you if you watch 10,000 or 50,000 people, that you would not be able to tease out the people who had a drink or two a month, their recurrence rate or their longevity or anything that you study versus those who had abstained. 

Leah: And there were plenty of patients that I've seen who had one of the cancers where alcohol is, possibly causative who never had a drink of alcohol in their entire life.

Tina: Oh, sure. 

Leah: So it's not like, “Oh, I drank, that's why…” I mean, we worked in a community in northern Indiana, where there were plenty of people who never drink alcohol, never smoked cigarettes, they never had any of those kinds of exposures. And they still got cancer, because that's what cancer does. 

Tina: Yes. We don't always know what causes it. All we can do is look at risk factors and mitigate them. But they are risk factors. They're not set in stone. 

Leah: Right, it's not. Like you were saying, it's not like, “If A then B.”

Tina: Now, if it were that simple, we could avoid it completely.

Leah: Right. 

Tina: That would be nice. 

Leah: So we've kind of covered a lot. I feel like we could keep talking about this, but we have other subjects to move on to our next episode will be about coffee. 

Tina: Oh, yeah.

Leah: Good for you? Bad for you?... All about coffee. 

Tina: I may be a little biased with this one. I'll put that right out there now.

Leah: I think we both have really strong opinions about coffee. Again, I will say I think these three episodes will be controversial.

Tina: Yes. I know. I mean, we don't want to like rain on anyone's parade. But we're just going to talk truth, right? That's all you can do. Here’s the data…

Leah: We're putting information out there. I mean, we're reading it in the news anyways. And so we're talking about it. 

Tina: We started with the evil demon alcohol, didn't we? 

Leah: The Kinks. Go out and listen it's on YouTube, go out and listen to the Kinks. And then get ready and we'll come up with a song for coffee- Black Coffee in Bed. By Squeeze! I think it’s Squeeze… 

Tina: Oh, gosh, you know, I don't know that kind of stuff. 

 Leah: I might have to edit this out. Alright, so this has been our alcohol episode. We're going to talk about coffee next. Good for you/Bad for you. 

I am Dr. Leah Sherman.

Tina: And I'm Dr. Tina Kaczor.  

Leah: And this has been The Cancer Pod. 

Tina: Thanks for listening. 

Thanks for listening to the cancer pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The Cancer Pod is hosted by me, Dr. Leah Sherman, and by Dr. Tina Kaczor. Music is by Kevin MacLeod. See you next time.