Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.765
And she says in her interview, you know, if it's a choice between losing my breast or losing my life, losing her breast was her, you know, and it was her option, but then she chose for whatever reasons to go a more holistic route route route.
00:00:17.876 --> 00:00:21.786
She chose to go, she chose to go a more holistic route.
00:00:22.580 --> 00:00:22.981
Root?
00:00:23.001 --> 00:00:23.390
Route?
00:00:23.411 --> 00:00:25.001
I don't know what the root is!
00:00:25.041 --> 00:00:25.780
It could be either.
00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:27.181
Okay, either!
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:28.021
Either.
00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:18.250
Hey, Tina.
00:01:18.730 --> 00:01:19.840
Hey, Leah, how you doing?
00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:21.069
I'm doing well.
00:01:21.099 --> 00:01:22.480
Did you watch that video I sent you?
00:01:22.950 --> 00:01:23.950
I did.
00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:25.670
I actually did my homework this time.
00:01:26.189 --> 00:01:26.969
Awesome.
00:01:27.450 --> 00:01:29.109
We both know that's not a given.
00:01:29.549 --> 00:01:30.079
No, that's not.
00:01:32.459 --> 00:01:37.209
Um, did you know who Elle Macpherson was before you watched the video?
00:01:37.668 --> 00:01:38.088
No.
00:01:38.629 --> 00:01:39.049
Okay.
00:01:39.578 --> 00:01:40.549
I didn't think so.
00:01:40.838 --> 00:01:46.138
Her name is vaguely familiar, but if you said, who's Elle McPherson, I probably would have meant, I don't know, an actress.
00:01:46.539 --> 00:01:47.069
Yeah.
00:01:47.099 --> 00:01:54.058
Now I know that you're not like, you know, you're, you don't have the finger on the pulse of cultural, whatever the word is.
00:01:54.099 --> 00:01:54.528
I don't know.
00:01:54.918 --> 00:01:55.519
Yeah.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:02:00.308
I went to a trivia night and people expected me to know things and I was like, this is all pop culture.
00:02:00.308 --> 00:02:01.789
I know nothing.
00:02:01.789 --> 00:02:02.088
I mean.
00:02:02.088 --> 00:02:02.409
Yeah,
00:02:03.058 --> 00:02:03.588
yeah.
00:02:03.884 --> 00:02:11.623
so I was very familiar with who Elle Macpherson is because I Know about models and supermodels and all that stuff.
00:02:11.653 --> 00:02:38.621
Anyways, so to our listeners we are talking about the 60 Minutes Australia video That is on YouTube Where Elle Macpherson is interviewed about her book that she is coming out with that is going to be released in the US in November of 2024 And there is a portion of the interview where she talks about her breast cancer diagnosis in 2017.
00:02:39.066 --> 00:02:45.795
Yeah, I have seen rumblings on social media about this, and so it is being talked about a lot.
00:02:45.945 --> 00:02:56.216
And, um, the reason I haven't really paid much attention to those conversations, and I was happy to watch the 60 Minutes video, it's like everything we do, it's kind of going back to the source.
00:02:56.622 --> 00:03:00.365
So I was glad you sent me that video because I want to know what she has to say.
00:03:00.558 --> 00:03:03.656
not what other people are interpreting her as having have said.
00:03:03.656 --> 00:03:04.506
Well, exactly.
00:03:04.515 --> 00:03:10.348
And I looked into the video because of everything I had seen on social media.
00:03:10.348 --> 00:03:22.855
And then I started seeing headlines where, these different media outlets were declaring that Elle Macpherson refused chemotherapy, cured herself naturally of breast cancer.
00:03:22.855 --> 00:03:30.231
And so when I learned of this video on YouTube, I was like, like you said, we don't have access to the book to read it.
00:03:30.241 --> 00:03:33.609
So that was the next best thing, um, was to listen.
00:03:33.609 --> 00:03:38.938
And what's interesting about the interview is it's not all about her cancer diagnosis.
00:03:39.299 --> 00:03:42.868
She talks about her history of alcoholism, and other things.
00:03:42.868 --> 00:03:46.588
And so The breast cancer part of her book.
00:03:46.588 --> 00:03:59.748
It's one chapter as is I'm sure the alcoholism and other issues, you know Relationships or whatever she talks about she talks about her insecurities and modeling I mean, it's just the interview just doesn't focus only on the cancer part, but that's the part that I wanted you to see
00:04:00.055 --> 00:04:19.425
Yeah, I found it really interesting, and, I know, because I've been doing natural medicine for 25 years, that what happens in headlines, even through media, before social media, regular media, the spin zone, you know, things get spun out of control and just for readership and more eyeballs on there.
00:04:19.545 --> 00:04:21.899
Whatever they're writing or blogging or publishing.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:28.396
So, I kind of knew that it was probably going to be different from her mouth than it is from the scuttlebutt that I see online.
00:04:28.841 --> 00:04:46.725
right, and I I mean I understand when cancer patients and survivors are saying this is irresponsible, you know, promoting natural medicine, alternative medicine, I should say, you know, instead of doing conventional treatment, you know, pushing that.
00:04:46.745 --> 00:04:49.346
I mean, yeah, I, I get all of that.
00:04:49.915 --> 00:04:52.677
Um, watching the interview, was she pushing it?
00:04:52.677 --> 00:04:54.805
It didn't seem like she was pushing it.
00:04:54.805 --> 00:04:56.055
She said it was her choice.
00:04:56.435 --> 00:04:59.865
I do know there are people out there who will say, well, if L.
00:04:59.865 --> 00:05:01.846
McPherson can do it, then I can do it.
00:05:02.293 --> 00:05:02.742
but.
00:05:03.507 --> 00:05:11.120
maybe we should start at the beginning so Let's let's let's rewind and we'll do a little bit of history of what we gathered from the interview,
00:05:11.485 --> 00:05:12.785
So, her diagnosis.
00:05:12.785 --> 00:05:14.425
What was her diagnosis exactly?
00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:15.149
right?
00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:26.629
So her diagnosis according to the interview was a"Her2 positive estrogen receptive intraductal carcinoma with positive margins."
00:05:27.165 --> 00:05:27.634
Mm hmm.
00:05:28.154 --> 00:05:41.014
So, in the United States, we would say HER2 positive, ER positive, you know, estrogen receptor positive, um, DCIS, ductal carcinoma in situ.
00:05:41.915 --> 00:05:46.274
Stage zero is what they call it in terms of, the staging of, breast cancer.
00:05:46.641 --> 00:05:49.880
There is a standard of care that patients in the U.
00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:50.151
S.
00:05:50.151 --> 00:05:55.420
would receive, and that is according to the National Comprehensive Cancer Network, NCCN.
00:05:55.761 --> 00:05:59.750
From what I gathered from the interview, it's the same in Australia?
00:06:00.266 --> 00:06:07.656
Yeah, I think the conventional recommendation sounded exactly the same, which is surgery.
00:06:07.706 --> 00:06:16.425
With large enough margins or if the margins are small, they're still clear, but they're smaller than a certain amount, then it's lumpectomy plus radiation.
00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.211
And, and hormone blockade if it's estrogen receptor positive.
00:06:20.735 --> 00:06:30.668
Right, and then sometimes a mastectomy is recommended, or a patient chooses to have a mastectomy to reduce the risk of a recurrence on the same side.
00:06:31.314 --> 00:06:40.093
Yeah, and I don't have any patients in my recollection that have ever been offered or recommended chemotherapy for DCIS.
00:06:40.569 --> 00:06:48.238
No, no, um, I'm looking at the NCCN guidelines right now and that is not in there.
00:06:48.249 --> 00:06:52.329
It is, uh, let's see, I'm looking.
00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:56.548
You look for the tumor estrogen receptor status.
00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:59.689
Typically HER2 is not something that is looked at.
00:07:00.343 --> 00:07:01.584
Not in DCIS.
00:07:02.093 --> 00:07:03.514
Not in DCIS, correct.
00:07:03.908 --> 00:07:04.918
Here in the States.
00:07:05.574 --> 00:07:17.463
Breast conserving surgery without lymph node surgery or total mastectomy with sentinel lymph node biopsy and reconstruction would be optional, plus or minus reconstruction.
00:07:17.788 --> 00:07:31.437
With the breast conserving surgery, which is a lumpectomy, then you have the option of either whole breast radiation, accelerated partial breast radiation, or no radiation.
00:07:31.793 --> 00:07:32.132
Mm hmm.
00:07:32.132 --> 00:07:32.197
Mm hmm.
00:07:32.713 --> 00:07:40.689
And then post treatment, you would be offered tamoxifen or an aromatase inhibitor if you are post menopausal.
00:07:41.173 --> 00:07:41.824
Exactly.
00:07:42.153 --> 00:07:42.463
Yeah.
00:07:42.463 --> 00:07:53.053
And so in the interview, she mentioned that she was offered or recommended aggressive therapy, including chemotherapy, radiation and hormone blockade.
00:07:53.644 --> 00:07:55.783
That would be unusual here in the States.
00:07:56.322 --> 00:07:58.223
I do think she's being honest.
00:07:58.242 --> 00:08:04.639
Now, I don't think there's any duplicitous nature in anything that she's doing with the book or the interviews or anything like that.
00:08:05.016 --> 00:08:09.175
When people are saying, Oh, she's lying and blah, blah, blah, and people get all uppity.
00:08:09.365 --> 00:08:19.305
Um, I think she heard what she heard and somehow along the way she thought chemotherapy was going to be something that Maybe some facilities recommend for her.
00:08:19.805 --> 00:08:20.776
I don't doubt her.
00:08:20.865 --> 00:08:23.815
I think she heard exactly what she heard in my experience.
00:08:23.826 --> 00:08:27.146
Sometimes people hear things that are a not a hundred percent correct.
00:08:27.685 --> 00:08:36.655
So I've seen thousands and thousands of patients, and there are times that people hear something and they know they heard what they heard, but it's just a little off from what was said.
00:08:36.655 --> 00:08:36.985
So.
00:08:37.461 --> 00:08:44.520
I don't know what, I mean, we can speculate that maybe someone said, well, if we find that there is invasive ductal carcinoma, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:44.520 --> 00:08:45.730
Like, I don't know.
00:08:45.791 --> 00:08:47.500
That's what, that's what I was thinking.
00:08:47.500 --> 00:08:52.461
I was thinking that if they did discuss one of your options, and I think she sought treatment in the U.
00:08:52.461 --> 00:08:52.951
S.
00:08:53.163 --> 00:08:54.702
that's the impression I got from the interview.
00:08:55.003 --> 00:08:56.472
But if somebody said.
00:08:56.577 --> 00:08:58.370
you can choose a mastectomy.
00:08:58.370 --> 00:09:01.340
We will do a Sentinel lymph node biopsy at that time.
00:09:01.549 --> 00:09:08.480
If there is cancer in that lymph node, then chemotherapy, that could have been the conversation that I could totally see.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.990
I mean, we've both had conversations with patients.
00:09:11.009 --> 00:09:18.220
You know, I used to see them immediately after they would get their treatment plan from the doctor and the nurse.
00:09:18.230 --> 00:09:19.919
You know, they would talk to them about the treatment plan.
00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:21.610
Then they'd come to me and they would.
00:09:22.105 --> 00:09:24.414
They, you know, they had additional questions.
00:09:24.725 --> 00:09:28.105
And so, you know, we've had patients where it's like, we've had to clarify.
00:09:28.205 --> 00:09:31.548
That's not, you know, that's not what the plan was.
00:09:31.701 --> 00:09:32.581
Yeah.
00:09:32.851 --> 00:09:34.152
It's totally understandable.
00:09:34.152 --> 00:09:34.528
Mm
00:09:34.687 --> 00:09:36.897
yeah, your brain isn't, you're not present.
00:09:36.907 --> 00:09:40.606
I mean, it is, it's like you're given this diagnosis, you're given this treatment plan.
00:09:40.606 --> 00:09:41.826
It's a lot of information.
00:09:41.826 --> 00:09:43.307
You don't have a medical background.
00:09:43.797 --> 00:09:47.157
Um, you're taking notes or maybe you're not taking notes.
00:09:47.157 --> 00:09:48.047
Maybe you're recording it.
00:09:48.096 --> 00:09:50.417
Maybe you're not, you know, so.
00:09:51.006 --> 00:09:55.027
We don't know what she was actually told, but that's her recollection of what she was told.
00:09:55.422 --> 00:09:56.001
Exactly.
00:09:56.001 --> 00:09:57.361
There's two possibilities too.
00:09:57.402 --> 00:10:04.922
I mean, one, she walked away with that and misheard it in a way that it wasn't actually a recommendation, at least not at that point for DCIS.
00:10:05.692 --> 00:10:10.945
Or, and this is a horrible idea, chemotherapy is really a cash cow.
00:10:11.215 --> 00:10:22.644
And so if she went somewhere that was completely unscrupulous or somehow You know, not legit in that sense, chemotherapy has been given to patients that was like a marginal, benefit.
00:10:22.794 --> 00:10:26.534
I've had that happen to patients in the past where chemotherapy was given.
00:10:26.534 --> 00:10:31.034
I thought to myself, wow, that's, it seemed like an overtreatment for some people.
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.269
Oh, absolutely.
00:10:32.419 --> 00:10:47.267
We, you know, working at Cancer Treatment Centers of America, we saw patients that were coming for second opinions and definitely saw patients who were diagnosed with breast cancer came to us because the chemotherapy was too much for them.
00:10:47.267 --> 00:10:54.157
And they thought they, they would get alternative medicine at CTCA, which they did not, but then learned from the oncologist.
00:10:54.726 --> 00:11:00.317
Well, for your type of breast cancer, at your stage, chemo really isn't indicated.
00:11:01.397 --> 00:11:05.611
But I have a feeling she went to, like, I mean, She was a supermodel.
00:11:05.611 --> 00:11:08.562
She has access to the best health care.
00:11:08.662 --> 00:11:10.432
like a superpowers.
00:11:10.461 --> 00:11:11.511
She's got superpowers to go
00:11:11.751 --> 00:11:12.761
No, she's a supermodel.
00:11:12.761 --> 00:11:17.601
She's not, you know, going to some, you know, off the grid cancer center.
00:11:17.892 --> 00:11:24.412
And so when I, I looked at Mayo, City of Hope, MD Anderson, those are the kind of the big guns.
00:11:24.412 --> 00:11:31.928
I mean, there are other cancer centers, you know, in the Phoenix area, but, and I just assumed that she went to Arizona for her treatment discussions.
00:11:31.958 --> 00:11:34.879
But, you know, they all, all those websites.
00:11:35.328 --> 00:11:41.552
State that what we just said for standard of care for DCIS, it's on the website.
00:11:41.631 --> 00:11:43.652
So anyways, we don't know who she talked to.
00:11:43.662 --> 00:11:45.932
We don't know what cancer center she went to.
00:11:46.292 --> 00:11:47.841
we have doing a lot of disclaimers here.
00:11:48.514 --> 00:12:00.042
Well, yeah, because we're speculating a little bit, but the whole idea here is this is a good opportunity to talk about, you know, there's a time and a place for natural medicine and conventional medicine and can I say something in this interview?
00:12:00.341 --> 00:12:08.721
I have a little pet peeve, and that is when conventional medicine, orthodox medicine, allopathic medicine, those are all synonyms.
00:12:09.131 --> 00:12:10.001
What it is not.
00:12:10.437 --> 00:12:12.606
And it should never be called is traditional medicine.
00:12:13.662 --> 00:12:18.361
So people can refer, and the interviewer did this, she referred to conventional medicine as traditional medicine.
00:12:18.705 --> 00:12:19.764
Oh, I didn't catch that.
00:12:20.004 --> 00:12:23.259
Mmm, I only catch it because I'm like, it rubs me the wrong way.
00:12:23.658 --> 00:12:25.489
Um, it's not traditional,
00:12:25.859 --> 00:12:29.828
Well, I, cause when I think of traditional medicine, I think of indigenous medicine,
00:12:29.969 --> 00:12:46.240
Traditional medicine is herbal medicine and all, you know, a shaman might practice traditional medicine, so just saying, saying that, because you know, from a language perspective, I'd like to be consistent and traditional means, more ethno botanical medicine, maybe Chinese medicine or whatever.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.250
So I just wanna put that out there.
00:12:48.250 --> 00:12:50.140
'cause I, you said conventional, which I agree with.
00:12:50.140 --> 00:12:52.660
I think conventional is the term that everyone can understand, but,
00:12:52.921 --> 00:12:54.250
That's, that's what I typically use.
00:12:54.311 --> 00:12:56.870
I don't, yeah, I don't think of it as traditional.
00:12:57.091 --> 00:13:08.551
Um, I want to rewind a little bit and I want us to talk about the HER2 positive receptor in general, and then also in connection with the DCIS.
00:13:09.270 --> 00:13:12.221
so, well you did a little bit of research on this.
00:13:12.221 --> 00:13:13.480
I'll let you talk about it.
00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:16.730
So, HER2 is a receptor.
00:13:16.770 --> 00:13:22.791
It is the human epidermal growth factor receptor 2, and it's a protein that promotes the growth of cancer cells.
00:13:23.311 --> 00:13:28.116
It's checked in breast cancer, when it's invasive.
00:13:28.517 --> 00:13:36.726
It's one of the receptors they check, they check the estrogen and progesterone receptors and they check the HER2 receptor.
00:13:37.067 --> 00:13:40.280
Um, but it's also found on other cancers.
00:13:40.691 --> 00:13:43.065
The status is also found with other cancers.
00:13:43.065 --> 00:13:46.184
which we're not going to talk about because that's not the topic.
00:13:46.715 --> 00:13:52.636
So it is a receptor that can be targeted with certain medications.
00:13:53.424 --> 00:13:57.274
Herceptin and Projeta are the ones that we think of the most.
00:13:57.735 --> 00:14:03.548
and it's not typically tested or checked in DCIS.
00:14:03.837 --> 00:14:06.447
So let's talk about why it's tested normally.
00:14:06.467 --> 00:14:08.937
So an invasive ductal carcinoma.
00:14:09.142 --> 00:14:11.211
So DCIS is not invasive.
00:14:11.636 --> 00:14:12.317
Ductal carcinoma.
00:14:12.317 --> 00:14:19.326
Ductal carcinoma in situ is that intraductal breast cancer, what they referred to as intraductal in the interview.
00:14:20.106 --> 00:14:26.466
I looked it up quickly just to see, I was like, why did they do HER2 status on DCIS?
00:14:26.466 --> 00:14:29.177
Assuming everything they're saying is accurate.
00:14:29.364 --> 00:14:35.613
It's unusual to do because it's not prognostic in DCIS as it is with invasive ductal carcinoma.
00:14:36.258 --> 00:14:40.408
So in DCIS, it's positive more often.
00:14:40.427 --> 00:14:45.475
It's around 40 percent of the time it's positive, but it has no bearing on.
00:14:45.674 --> 00:14:51.115
The treatment, normal DCIS treatment, doesn't depend on HER2 status at all.
00:14:51.745 --> 00:14:56.294
When we look at invasive ductal carcinoma, it's positive 15, maybe 20 percent of the time.
00:14:56.575 --> 00:14:59.544
Maybe more than that now, there's a little bit more sensitive testing going on.
00:15:00.075 --> 00:15:08.565
Um, in any case, yes, I did a little reconnaissance just looking at that, because I thought that was kind of unusual to have the HER2 status for DCIS.
00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:18.164
I do remember a particular patient where their HER2 status was checked at the prior cancer center.
00:15:18.424 --> 00:15:22.004
And I remember talking with the oncologist and I was like, what, what about the HER2 status?
00:15:22.054 --> 00:15:25.085
where does trastuzumab, you know, Herceptin come into play?
00:15:25.335 --> 00:15:28.384
And he said, no, we don't, that's not something with that we look at.
00:15:29.215 --> 00:15:31.125
So I'm sure that they're still looking at it.
00:15:31.125 --> 00:15:32.144
They're still doing tests.
00:15:32.144 --> 00:15:42.731
You know, there's still research around it about what, you know, the significance is, but it's like you said, it's more prevalent In carcinoma in situ than it is in.
00:15:43.231 --> 00:15:44.761
invasive, uh, cancer.
00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:46.100
I'll put a link to that study.
00:15:46.130 --> 00:15:50.471
It's called Prognostic and Predictive Value of Her2 Expression in Ductal Carcinoma in Situ.
00:15:50.541 --> 00:15:53.831
So I'll put a link to that so people can go back and look at it if they're interested.
00:15:54.365 --> 00:16:02.255
yeah, and it, in invasive cancers, it is, I mean, in general, it is a sign of a more aggressive cancer.
00:16:02.461 --> 00:16:02.811
Right.
00:16:02.821 --> 00:16:04.140
For invasive ductal carcinomas.
00:16:04.576 --> 00:16:04.995
Yeah.
00:16:05.235 --> 00:16:09.186
So, but they're not quite sure what it means, as you said, you know, in, DCIS.
00:16:09.186 --> 00:16:13.145
So, so that was kind of a, like a, I don't know what you call it.
00:16:13.691 --> 00:16:17.571
It like, threw a little, a wrench in the whole story.
00:16:17.581 --> 00:16:20.850
It's like, cause like, why was it, why was it checked?
00:16:21.020 --> 00:16:21.740
You know, it,
00:16:21.791 --> 00:16:22.370
Yeah.
00:16:22.541 --> 00:16:24.071
Because she used the word aggressive.
00:16:24.081 --> 00:16:26.990
They told her that her DCIS was aggressive.
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.091
And normally that's is not like the invasive form of breast cancer.
00:16:31.410 --> 00:16:41.951
The aggressiveness depends on the architectural pattern of the tissue, the, what we call the histology and on the nuclear grade, like how many cells are dividing.
00:16:41.961 --> 00:16:44.530
And so there is, there is a scale, right?
00:16:44.571 --> 00:16:46.571
Papillary, solid, cribiform.
00:16:46.770 --> 00:16:49.980
There's a scale of aggressiveness for DCIS.
00:16:50.405 --> 00:16:51.586
So I don't doubt that either.
00:16:51.596 --> 00:16:58.475
She was told, you know, you have a crib of form or you have a highly aggressive architectural pattern to the tissue.
00:16:59.015 --> 00:17:02.725
I don't doubt that because you can use the word aggressive and DCIS in the same sentence.
00:17:02.725 --> 00:17:03.645
That's a truism.
00:17:04.221 --> 00:17:15.270
It just doesn't mean the same thing as invasive ductal carcinoma once it leaves the ducts because when you say aggressive then, it has more prognostic consequences, right?
00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:24.595
So it really means that this is more likely to go somewhere else in your body because it's already left the duct itself, the actual mammary gland duct.
00:17:25.115 --> 00:17:25.404
All right.
00:17:25.560 --> 00:17:26.590
I just want to clarify that
00:17:27.047 --> 00:17:27.446
Okay.
00:17:27.777 --> 00:17:31.176
So that's kind of, the background on the pieces.
00:17:31.453 --> 00:17:34.834
You know, the pieces that we were able to glean from the interview.
00:17:35.284 --> 00:17:37.624
Um, neither of us have treated her.
00:17:37.634 --> 00:17:38.703
We don't know her.
00:17:38.983 --> 00:17:43.330
and just so we're clear on that's all the diagnosis clarifications and our understanding of what's going on.
00:17:43.590 --> 00:17:54.381
And for her treatment, just so we're crystal clear, she had what she called a lumpectomy with positive margins and then a second lumpectomy that also had positive margins and that's it for conventional medicine.
00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:56.401
That's where she stopped with the conventional and then she went on.
00:17:56.901 --> 00:18:02.740
What I'm thinking is with that second surgery, if that's not when the mastectomy was discussed.
